Änderungen
→Bitte erst mal sagen, worum es hier genau geht
Und Shisma, (jetzt lass dir doch nicht alles aus der Nase ziehen) wie ist deine persönliche Meinung zu dem ganzen jetzt? --[[Spezial:Beiträge/84.161.94.97|84.161.94.97]] 15:26, 13. Sep. 2015 (UTC)
:Da scheinbar hier und [http://de.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Einladung_f%C3%BCr_Admins_per_Tele-Konferenz_am_MA_Meeting_in_San_Fran_teilzunehmen da] keiner eine Meinung hat, vieleicht interesiert ja jemanden die Meinungen der MA/en dazu und bringt den einen oder anderen dazu die Diskussion wieder auf zu nehmen!
==Post-Meet up==
So... when and where can we plebs read how this went? -- [[User:Capricorn|Capricorn]] ([[User talk:Capricorn|talk]]) 16:50, September 10, 2015 (UTC)
:I'll try to doodle something up after the weekend, but if R54, AD3, or Defiant want to post some notes from their side of things, that'd be great too. -- [[User:Sulfur|sulfur]] ([[User talk:Sulfur|talk]]) 17:23, September 10, 2015 (UTC)
::Due merely to the technology involved, I personally found it quite difficult to hear and know when to speak (I had been under the impression the "teleconferencing" was going to include video messaging, not just audio, but this unfortunately wasn't the case). Nonetheless, I did find the conversation very insightful and interesting, so it was certainly good to take part (at least IMO). I made some notes regarding the first of the two discussions (mainly because I expected to be most interested in that one but, as it turned out, I ultimately found the second talk to be of more interest, and must admit I just got caught up in listening to a fascinating discussion).
::Anyway, the ideas I noted were about what wikia is planning to do for ''Star Trek''{{'}}s 50th Anniversary. From what I could hear, this included: in partnership with StarTrek.com, a character tournament with several rounds; a lot more ''Star Trek'' census videos (from conventions, etc.), much like those that are already on the website Trek Initiative; and a ''Star Trek'' edition of the online game show Qwizards. Also, Paramount, CBS, and IDW are very interested in working with Memory Alpha. There was also talk of a [[Simon Pegg]] interview with questions from our community, around the time ''Star Trek Beyond'' will be released (much like the previous J.J. Abrams interview featured here) though there was a concern raised about whether it will be too self-referential to host such an interview (and/or similar content) on MA. --[[User:Defiant|Defiant]] ([[User talk:Defiant|talk]]) 07:02, September 11, 2015 (UTC)
The anniversary plans sound like they could be pretty cool (didn't expect anything less though, wikia is pretty good at this kind of stuff), except, did I read that right and are videos going to be added? More importantly though, I'm very curious, even a bit anxious, about how the second meeting went (the one about if we are in fact wikia's whores :p). Have to say I'm a bit surprised not to have heard about that yet. -- [[User:Capricorn|Capricorn]] ([[User talk:Capricorn|talk]]) 21:03, September 15, 2015 (UTC)
:The census videos are already online on Wikia (they've been doing them for a year or so). You can sometimes see those in the right sidepanel. I'm still... uncomfortable with videos because they've been unable to present what we'd like to see here (ie, a limited library of licensed videos, and only those being available/etc).
:Quick summary of stuff (there was a lot to take in over the course of the week, so forgive me if I miss large amounts of stuff, but feel free to ask me to expand on stuffs).
:* 50th Anniversary Meeting: This was a fair bit of fluff, because very few plans have been finalized at this point in time. Having said that, there may be opportunity to participate in some ''Star Trek'' conventions during the 50th year if there is interest (both in the US and UK). In short, Roddenberry Inc has plans. IDW has plans. CBS has plans. Paramount may (or may not) have plans. There will likely be a lot of tie-in opportunities with Wikia.
:* The Trek Initiative: As noted above. One idea floated was a Q/A with Simon Pegg (who has apparently expressed some interest already). This would likely be hosted on TTI rather than MA (so that we can try to avoid being self-referential!). Another idea (floated by [[User:Shisma|shisma]] was to to lengthy interviews with scientists/etc who were influenced by Trek (ie, de Grasse, Krauss, etc).
:* Lunch
:* Legal gathering. There were some serious technical issues with this one unfortunately to start, but once they were resolved, things got rolling. It was scheduled for ~90 minutes... with the extra 30+ we went _after_ the end of the phone-in portion... it was almost 2h45m. I think that the biggest win out of this meeting was that the Wikia VPs (WAS and Moro) and legal guy (Des) understood a) where MA came from, b) why we're different historically, and c) why we do things the way that we do. I get the impression that there was some level of understanding previously, but not to the extent that there is now. The major issues that were discussed and are on the list of things to be addressed include:
:** CC-by-NC on all MA wikis properly. [This is being worked on with help from [[User:Renegade54|R54]]]
:** We currently use v2.5. Wikia lists v3.0. [Aside: CC now has v4.0 released].
:** Advertising in the middle of content (I was able to find three excellent examples that I took screenshots of and shared with them).
:** Using MA materials for money elsewhere. (This does not appear to be occurring, which is good)
:* Some other meeting happened in here... I'm blanking on what offhand. Sadly.
:* Data futures on Wikia. This one was kinda interesting. Not quite [https://www.wikidata.org/ WikiData] (which has the potentially to be awesomely cool here), but using the portable infoboxes/sidebars as a stepping stone to be able to store that data in a central place, do data checking on it when added to sidebars, and use those to auto-populate tables or other data objects. For example, having a DB with episode data in it. That would auto-populate episode sidebars. It would also populate the episode tables on season pages, etc.
:End of Tuesday. Shisma and I went for drinks (he drank some wine, I drank some beer, we wandered around the area we were in for shits and giggles).
:Wednesday. Meet up with lots of people from other wikis, other countries, totally other walks of life. Almost all young pups too. Wanted to wave my cane at them and tell them to get off my lawn!
:* Lots of sessions, you can see the [[w:c:connect:Category:2015 Sessions|complete list here]]. If you have questions on what was contained in any of them, I can try to help, but no promises. What's really cool is that during the introduction shisma and I were pulled off to the side to have a video conference with Rod Roddenberry (aka Gene Jr). This was lots and lots of fluff, until Rod mentioned two magic words... "call sheets". It turns out that they've got copies of almost every single call sheet from modern trek in their archives. It also turns out that they've got copies of almost every single shooting script from Trek in their archives. I expressed our interest at having access to these things for research... and they were open to it. I'm going to followup this week with the Wikia VP and Roddenberry to see if any progress on the idea has been made.
:* The big thing that came out of this in terms of the tech side is that the portable sidebars are the stepping stone towards something similar to wikidata. We have a full set of data built already that [[User:Bp|Bp]] used to use his bot for to update episodes/season lists/etc. If we can automate that with the system, that'd make life a hell of a lot easier.
:* The other cool thing that I did while I was there was to write a tool that extracts the complete MA history. Haha. Shisma wrote one that can pull down all files and their revisions.
:If anyone's got questions, please ask. If there's anything you want more detail on, ditto. -- [[User:Sulfur|sulfur]] ([[User talk:Sulfur|talk]]) 00:32, September 16, 2015 (UTC)
:::Hey. Happy to provide an update. Sorry I wasn't able to sooner. Last week, starting the day after Memory Alpha Day, was our Community Connect event, so things were crazy busy last week, as you can imagine. To add on to Defiant's great summary of the programming discussion, the biggest point about how Memory Alpha would interact with programming, as Defiant already mentioned, is that Memory Alpha doesn't want to self-reference. That means that we will plan for our programming to continue to live on Trek Initiative, while also tailoring it when we can around things that would be of interest to the Memory Alpha community. One thing that hasn't been mentioned already is the possibility of Memory Alpha contributors being used as experts in 50th anniversary panels/events throughout the year. This is all very vague and fluid right now, though, since we are still working to formalize what our plan is with CBS. We also have not yet had any discussions with Paramount, but we expect to soon, which will ideally allow us to have programming around ''Star Trek Beyond''.
:::As for the legal meeting, that discussion went very well. The key takeaway that Wikia had was a better understanding of Memory Alpha's point of view, which isn't too surprising; in-person and even phone conversations are always more conducive to this sort of thing than just text. Here's a high level summary of the action items that Wikia walked away with from the meeting:
:::*The biggest thing missing in this situation is trust. We hope to be able to build trust with the community, which we know will take a lot of work since much of these issues stem back all the way to Wikia's acquisition of Memory Alpha. One way we want to work on that is to have regular conversations, on the phone like last week, with Memory Alpha. Eric Moro, VP of Programming, is particularly keen on this idea heading into the 50th, so we can work closely with you on programming.
:::*We want to find out more about community concerns regarding the Wikia Star Trek app. It was mentioned that, from at least one person's perspective (apologies—I can't remember who that was), it seems to be lacking in attribution. What can we do to improve upon that, in MA's opinion?
:::*Determine whether we can link to the 2.5 NC license in the Wikia Licensing policy, as it currently only links to 3.0 while MA is 2.5
:::*Translate the Commercial Use Waiver into ALL available languages. Many international Wikia Licensing pages are a mess, and are lacking this information.
:::*Reorganize the Wikia Licensing policy into a clearer format. This isn't specific to MA, but it was rightly pointed out that it's difficult to know where the Commercial Use Waiver even is in the policy.
:::*Determine if there are any tweaks that can be made to the licensing language on Memory Alpha to address community concerns regarding Wikia's intentions with MA content, while acknowledging that a) there are not going to be any major changes to the Commercial Use Waiver and b) because of that, a big part of this is the trust issue. We want you to trust us when we say that the Commercial Use Waiver only applies to advertisements, but we know that will take time and effort.
:::As an added bonus to thank Sulfur and Shisma for flying all the way to San Francisco for both Memory Alpha Day and Community Connect, we also surprised them with a half hour video chat with Rod Roddenberry, the son of Gene Roddenberry and the CEO of Roddenberry Entertainment, our partner in the Trek Initiative project. Rod and Eric Moro talked a bit more about the Wikia/Roddenberry partnership and the plans for the 50th anniversary, and Rod talked about all of the many things that his company does, including the entertainment side, the Roddenberry Foundation, and Roddenberry Adventures. Rod's vision is less about creating the next new Star Trek entertainment project and more about spreading the message of Star Trek and fueling Star Trek fandom as much as he can. As part of that, he said he would try to get Memory Alpha some information that the community has been looking for to help its behind the scenes documentation efforts around the Star Trek shows, including The Original Series. I'm not going to go into ''too'' much detail here, including what that information is, but I can tell you that I saw Sulfur and Shisma's eyes light up once Rod said it!
:::Another thing we talked about more casually, not in a meeting setting, was about helping Memory Alpha whenever we can with its internationalization efforts. MA/en and its various international counterparts are, both philosophically and from a licensing perspective, a unique family of communities on Wikia, so when we can support that then we will.
:::I think between this and Defiant's comments, that just about covers everything. If you have any questions about any of this, please feel free to let me know.
:::p.s., Capricorn, the videos that were referenced live on Trek Initiative and will continue to do so, rather than on MA. - [[User:Brandon Rhea|<font color="#1A2BBB">'''Brandon Rhea'''</font>]]<staff /><sup>[[User talk:Brandon Rhea|<font color="#1A2BBB">(talk)</font>]]</sup> 00:38, September 16, 2015 (UTC)
::::Trust...is something wikia does not deserve, because we've tried it before, more than once in fact, nor are they ''truly'' willing to work toward it, which is the whole point of the CUW in the first place. The short answer to your question Capricorn is yes, wikia does think we are whores, and they expect us to keep working for the "opportunities", aka peanuts, they are ''now'' willing to provide. I don't remember the exact words they used, but the wikia is under the impression they already "own" '''''our''''' content, and they can do whatever the fuck they want with it. Making the ''most'' money off of ''our work'' is the '''''only''''' thing they care about. Everything else they say is as meaningless.
::::The long and short of it is that there are many people who want to work ''with'' us, but none of them work at wikia. They have been ''very'' clear we are expected to work ''for'' them. There was a lot of fluff thrown around, but the text of the CUW is all that really matters, and if they aren't willing to alter it in completely reasonable ways, the only smart and legal thing for us to do is leave, because there are plenty of users who contributed before the CUW was added ''without'' sufficient, or any, notice it seems, and if they aren't here now, they certainly never agreed to the CUW.
::::Wikia has to be made to realize that they shouldn't "worry" about a possible financial avenue not being available to them in two years or so if they aren't "allowed" to advertise in the content, maybe using the very fucking words that are explicitly copyrighted '''''non-commercial''''', but rather they should worry about having to pay to fight us for content that will be worth significantly less going forward if we leave. Just check the recent changes at the [[w:c:halo:Special:RecentChanges|Halo]] wiki and [[w:c:wowwiki:Special:RecentChanges|WOWWiki]] with their [http://www.halopedia.org/Special:RecentChanges counter][http://wow.gamepedia.com/Special:RecentChanges parts] that left, and that's assuming we would lose and wikia would get to keep a copy of MA online.
::::That said, I don't think it's prudent to walk away from the table just yet, because there is still a chance that someone at a high enough pay grade at wikia will take this seriously and be willing to negotiate a mutually beneficial arrangement, but I'm not really expecting that to happen. I am fairly certain of one thing though, if ''we'' build a better MA somewhere else, and let's be honest here, a basic up to date mediawiki installation would be better than the bastard version wikia is running right now, people will follow. - {{User:Archduk3/Sig/nature}} 02:07, September 16, 2015 (UTC)
:::::A few thoughts and observations, in no particular order:
:::::#Wikia is not one cohesive organism, it's a group consisting of many discrete individuals, some of whom are worthy of trust, and some of whom are not, just like any other corporation. I know there have been trust issues in the past - I've been active here for close to ten years now, and I've seen everything that's gone on in that time period. I also know that there are many new folks at Wikia since we first joined them; in fact, several of the Wikia staff who were at the meetings were relatively new, only having worked at Wikia for a year or two. I'm inclined to take people at their word until they prove untrustworthy.
:::::#One of the questions I posed to the technical staff (via Sulfur) was related to the MediaWiki version that AD refers to above. We're currently on MediaWiki 1.19.24, and the most up-to-date release is 1.26.x; 1.19.24 isn't even supported any more by Wikimedia, which means no more patches or bug fixes will be released for 1.19. The reply from the Wikia technical person was that they have no plans for a MediaWiki upgrade this year, i.e. in the near future, which means that if and when they do upgrade, MediaWiki will most likely be at 1.27 or higher. There may not even be a direct upgrade path from 1.19 to 1.26 or 1.27. I'm starting to get a bit worried that Wikia is planning on forking MediaWiki from the general release 1.19.24 to a "Wikia 1.20.x" or some such, and going their own, customized direction with the MediaWiki code. This means that we (and the rest of the Wikia wikis) won't have the benefit of the code development being done with the help and input of the larger MediaWiki user community, including new features.
:::::#Moving to another hosting provider would mean coming up with a method of funding for the hosting services. One of the main reasons MA moved to Wikia (WikiCities at the time) in the first place was that it was costing too much for our service provider at the time to keep on hosting us. We've since grown in size and number of page hits, so the cost would be even greater that it was back then. I don't know that anyone has done a sizing analysis to determine what the average monthly cost would be based on the size of our database and our bandwidth requirements. I'd be interested in seeing the results of such an analysis.
:::::#If we moved, it would be without the memory-alpha.org domain name; Wikia now owns that. We could probably get something like memory-alpha.info or memory-alpha.tv; if I remember correctly, a while back someone offered us the use of memory-alpha.net, but I don't know if that offer still stands.
:::::#More later. -- [[User:Renegade54|Renegade54]] ([[User talk:Renegade54|talk]]) 03:14, September 16, 2015 (UTC)
::::A few responses:
::::#When I refer to wikia, I'm referring to the company only, which is the only "person" we have a relationship with legally and in a business sense. I generally don't think the people there knowing "lie", but that's because I think they're ignorant cogs for the most part. There is clearly brain drain and talent retention problems at wikia, and we've heard more than once that people aren't aware of or empowered to discuss something. That makes them untrustworthy, because their word is meaningless for the most part and where it matters. Just because it's not their fault doesn't mean they aren't at fault collectively. Trust is about follow through, and wikia has followed through on precious little since I've been here, and based on the talk pages, not much before then either that couldn't be solved by Sannse within a day or two. Don't get me wrong, I've been drinking with some of the people who work(ed) there, so I don't have any issue with them as individuals, but individually their word isn't worth anything when they're talking to us. I want them talking to the people where their word is worth something, and that's to the people above them at wikia. I also want them sufficiently motivated when then do, and it seems to take a "kamikaze run" to get that kind of motivation, which should be all we need to know about how things work at wikia.
::::#You've probably right there, since my thinking is the same, and that's not good for us at all.
::::#We're most likely going to have to have some ads, unless kickstarter like methods will work better than I think, but it ''will'' be less than the number of ads right now, and we would have control over them. That makes it worth it in my book. Since we '''''don{{'}}t''''' have our own domain anymore, a report like that will be much harder to put together, but not all of our hosting options would require us to put together such a report, since some, if not most, of them would do it themselves, though I too am interested in those numbers. I'm pretty wikia has them based on the info I remember being on displays when I was there, and sulfur might if it came up, but if he does I'm sure there's an NDA covering that. That leads me to the next point though...
::::#Not all options where we leave actually require us to actually "leave". They're all very, ''very'', '''''very''''' unlikely based on wikia's complete lack of interest to agreeing to anything that makes them any less money on our content then they get ''right now'', because it takes an ''adult'' to delay immediate gratification in favor of a better long term deal, but those options do still exist. I've already secured serviceable domain names awhile ago just in case though, and getting ''our'' domain back is a priority, but how would depend on how we "leave". Let's be clear though, we '''don{{'}}t''' have the domain right now, not really, so other than the old acknowledgments and sentimental reasons, which I do have btw, it's still a net positive in getting a new one we control as far as I can see going forward.
::::I'm willing to discuss my thoughts on these topics in extensive detail, but not here, for reasons I think are obvious. If anyone is interested, feel free to email me at my username @hotmail.com for more info. - {{User:Archduk3/Sig/nature}} 05:00, September 16, 2015 (UTC)
'''Vieleicht hat ja einer Lust, dieses für die die es nicht so mit dem englichen haben, zu übersetzen.''' --[[Spezial:Beiträge/84.131.120.20|84.131.120.20]] 11:46, 19. Sep. 2015 (UTC)